Christian Filmmakers

And Tom, as for recording an orchestra several times and layering those on top of each other, that process is called “overdubbing.” It is usually used in these circumstances:
  1.) The film’s music budget doesn’t allow for a large ensemble. So, you record the ensemble several times and layer the recordings (this is tricky), and it sounds like you have a larger orchestra. This is also common with individual sections of the orchestra (such as the strings, trumpets, etc.). I heard that Jerry Goldsmith used to often do this, but I’m not positive.
  2.) The scoring is for a nonstandard ensemble that isn’t practical to record all at once. For instance, Basil Poledouris scored the main title to For the Love of the Game for a double string orchestra. Translation: in a traditional symphony orchestra, the string players comprise half to two thirds of the ensemble. Doubling the number of string players increases expenses enormously, assuming your contractor knew that many string players to begin with, and that the recording studio could fit that many people! So, what they did was record the orchestra playing part 1, and then they recorded the orchestra playing part 2 in a different recording session. After recording, the two were layered together, so you hear 2 string orchestras, but it’s technically the same orchestra playing both parts. Awesome piece, by the way!
  3.) An orchestra doesn’t have to be layered with itself. Hans Zimmer frequently records his scores with a live orchestra, and then he “beefs up” his scores with his own virtual instruments, usually to give his scores that extra power and bite that’s become his signature.

  Sometimes, such as in example #2, an ensemble is split to record different parts at different times. For instance, the percussion to the opening battle in Star Wars 3: Revenge of the Sith was recorded separately. Williams recorded the whole orchestra minus percussion and then recorded the percussion itself. I can’t really remember why, but it was probably to give them more flexibility when mixing later. If you listen on the CD version of the battle, the percussion is mixed down or nonexistent for most of the track. But, in the film, there’s a pounding bass drum and the snare drum is a little more prominent.
  Also, sometimes, such as example #3, various instruments are added later, after the orchestra has been recorded. Perhaps there will be a synthesizer, special instrument (such as a theremin or guitar or something), percussion, or virtual instruments in the final track, so you record what you can with the orchestra. Then, if you’re recording another live performer, you can isolate them and record them later. Or, if you’re doing what Zimmer does and “enhancing” (if that’s the right word) an orchestra’s performance, you load the recording onto your studio computer and add samples as need be. The same thing goes if you want to add some huge drums via samples, a synthesizer or sequencer, a techno beat, or any number of other things. (Think about “A Burly Brawl” from The Matrix Reloaded ... that’s an amazing combination of strong orchestral performance and heavily integrated techno-style fight music!)

  Anyway, a short answer to your question is, yes, dubbing/overdubbing is very commonplace. And again, like a choir, it’s used to achieve different effects.

Alex Beard, composer
http://www.composeralex.com
http://www.myspace.com/composeralex

I’ll often use vocal libraries like Ilio “Symphony of Voices”(London Choral)or Miroslav Vitous “Classical Choirs”(Prague symphonic choral), but will often double them up with live vocalists. I often do the same with virtual orchestra too. Of course, I learned this trick from many of the contemporary “A list” composers. This gives me a rich textural sound that feels authentic yet cinematic. Nothing beats kicking your virtual projects up a notch by mixing today’s orchestral/choral libraries with live players. If you check out “Where Poverty Lives” on the videos page of my website, about halfway through the piece, you’ll hear a female mezzo soprano singing what sounds like mellismatics. She actually singing excerpts from “The Lord’s Prayer” in Swahili. By the way, Great info Alex!!

John Doryk
film composer/sound designer
Night Sky Music & Sound Design
http://www.johndoryk.com

Alex Beard wrote:

Kurt Heinecke is an awesome composer.

Sadly, from what I understand, Mr. Heinecke is no longer with VeggieTales. He was released along with a bunch of other folks. I always liked the songs and the orchestration.

I love this discussion and could continue going with it for hours and hours

Thanks for the information about scoring.  I think that for lower budge projects this can really help.

Sad to hear about Kurt Heinecke—perhaps he’ll come over to Jellyfish or go out and do some scores for other films.

I remember James Horner’s music very much.  I loved Cocoon also.  Yeah, the late 70s and Early 80s were like a movie soundtrack revolution with Williams, Goldsmith, and Horner.  Of course there was Jaws, Close Encounters, Star Trek The Motion Picture, and Superman the Movie.

You know what was also a great theme—it kind of dropped in there with excellence with these masters in the late 70s- It was Battlestar Gallacta by Stu Phillips That was such an awesome soundtrack.  I saw Krull a long time ago, but didn’t remember the music.

I did think about Jaws and Close Encounters of the Third Kind. I don’t consider Jaws to be all that awesome a score, to be honest. Of course, the theme is perhaps the single most well-known movie theme in the world! But the score itself, I feel isn’t great, or at least as monumental as the other scores like I mentioned. I have the Close Encounters of the Third Kind collector’s edition CD, and I think the music is good, but I haven’t seen the film. All I know is, it’s really famous, and the music is supposed to play a huge role in the storytelling. Yeah, yeah, I know I need to see it.  I just got Netflix, and it’s in my queue, along with over 225 other films.

I also don’t care too much for the Battlestar Galactica theme by Stu Phillips and Glen Larson. It’s ok, just not my style or favorite. I haven’t seen Krull either, but again, it’s on my Netflix.

Alex Beard, composer
http://www.composeralex.com
http://www.myspace.com/composeralex

Close Encounters is a classic film and definitely something you want to see because the music is so engrained in how the visitors communicate with the humans. I haven’t seen it in years, but there’s definitely a large new age message in the film.

One thing we were recently discussing over at a professional composer’s forum I belong to was, how great film music doesn’t always define as great orchestral music or great classical music. The job of the film composer ultimately, isn’t to create a great masterpiece of music that stands on it’s own(like a classical or modern classical composer). The job of a good film composer is to create music that “underscores” the story and emotion of a film. In many ways, the score almost becomes another character or actor in the film. Sometimes the score is the lead or principle actor, but most of the time it often plays the role of an extra. In other word, it adds dimension, depth, and background to what’s going on emotionally, but doesn’t neccessarily draw attention to itself. And, in a good film score, all of these roles are constantly changing to suit the story. That’s why some of my favorite scores are not always some of the greatest compositions(from a classical composition perspective), but I love them because I loved the movies they were scored for and the composer’s music takes me back to the movie. If I listened to the scores on their own simply as artistic works, I might not have the same reaction.

Blessings,

John Doryk
film composer/sound designer
Night Sky Music & Sound Design
http://www.johndoryk.com

That’s true, John, in a lot of ways.  If a composer tries to outdo himself, he could upstage the film.  So the composer is truly a servant of the movie—adding such beauty but staying in the background.

It reminds me of the concept I recently heard that the Story was King and the music was Queen.

John, you’re absolutely right.

When I’m working with directors, probably 60% of the time we’re talking as if I’m an actor (“What exactly is happening in this character’s head right now?” “Is she reaching out to him?” “On a 1 to 10, how evil is he right now?” “Does the child remember, or is it only an impression?” etc.). This is mostly to do with emotion.

30% or so of the time, we’re talking as if I’m an editor, because it’s about pacing. (“How fast should this scene feel?” “Do you want it to escalate in intensity from beginning to end?” “Do you want the visions to get progressively intrusive, or should they all be about the same?”)

The rest of the time, about 10% or so, we talk as if I was a DP. (“From whose point of view is this scene? His, hers, a narrator’s, the audience’s, God’s?” Who’s the most prominent character in this scene? Should our character look big and tough right now, or alone and sad?”)

  I listen to film music all the time, and some scores are both incredible in the film and “standalone” on CD, like the aforementioned Star Wars and Superman scores. Obviously, only certain composers can pull this off, and only on certain projects at that! Here’s my opinion on a few major composers in this regard:
  * John Williams: His themes are usually very strong and memorable. On the whole, though, his scores aren’t all that interesting, with some obvious exceptions. After all, the Star Wars trilogy and Hook are two of my favorite scores! For example, though, check out Jaws, Amistad, Memoirs of a Geisha, Seven Years in Tibet, Saving Private Ryan, etc. These scores all have excellent themes, and the scores work great in the films, but they’re just not that enjoyable for me to listen to on their own.
  * Bernard Herrmann: His scores are generally a hit or miss, but on the whole, his music is great to listen to! It was his unique sound, his way of orchestrating, that could turn even an “uninteresting” piece of music into something colorful and enjoyable.
  * Hans Zimmer: Similar to Bernard Herrmann in this regard. Although most of his music kind of sounds the same, it is instantly recognizable as Zimmer. So, regardless of the particular score or the scene of the film the music was meant for, his music is pretty strong (perhaps the best word?) on its own. BUT, if you watch the film with the same piece, you can see and hear how incredibly synchronized everything is. The simplest percussion stuff in his music is usually synchronized, shot for shot, with the film. Check out in Pirates 2 when Jack, Elizabeth, and Norrington are on the island where Davy Jones’ heart is buried, walking forward to find the place. There’s a faraway shot that cuts to a closer shot, and then again to a closer shot, etc. Zimmer has a drum lined up with each of those shots! Cool piece to listen to (although it’s not on the CD), but works even better with the film!
  * Jerry Goldsmith: His music is either a complete hit or miss in regard to “listenability.” They’re either seriously boring on their own, or absolutely incredible and addictive. But, he was a master FILM composer! Watch just about any film that Goldsmith scored, and you’ll see why! But, check out “Main Title/The Parachutes” and “The Hijacking” from Air Force One. The whole score is incredible, but these two cues are probably my favorite. To say they’re exciting would be the understatement of the year! But, watch the film’s opening scene and the hijacking, and note to yourself how often the music lines up with the film. It’s absolutely amazing. He does it so well that you’re not even thinking about while listening to the music by itself! You just go with it. I mean, wow!
  * James Horner: Same as Jerry Goldsmith in this respect. Hit or miss. His newer scores, especially aren’t much to listen to on their own, with the exception of The Legend of Zorro, terrible film as it was, and even then most of the score’s merit is that it strongly resembled The Mask of Zorro. I quit keeping up with Horner as vigilantly in the early part of the decade, but his scores still work great in the film itself. Braveheart and the aforementioned Star Trek 2 are great to listen to on their own, but if you watch the film with these particular scores, you’ll be amazed with how the music goes to the movie!
  John Williams himself said, “If you can take a film score out of the film and it stands on its own as listenable music, then it’s more or less a lucky accident, because you’re asking it to fulfill a purpose for which it wasn’t conceived.” This is the guy who wrote some of the most famous themes and scores in movie history!

  Film music really does play a very unique and powerful role in the film. Like I said before, whenever I work with a director that’s never worked with a composer before, I tell them that my role is a weird hybrid of actor, editor, and even DP. Music really makes or breaks the film. Even a good story with good acting can be torn up by bad music. A great performance by an actor can be ruined by music that doesn’t work. But, on the positive side, music can turn a dry scene with bad acting around into a powerful scene that audiences will remember and appreciate!

Alex Beard, composer
http://www.composeralex.com
http://www.myspace.com/composeralex

Oh and by the way, Tom, a cool example of overdubbing I forgot to mention is Danny Elfman’s work on Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Remember “Wonka’s Welcome Song” song when the kids first get to the chocolate factory and the dolls come out and sing, then catch on fire? And, all of the Oompa Loompa songs (tracks 1-5 on the CD)? Danny Elfman performed ALL of those vocals! “Wonka’s Welcome Song” (track 1) is really one of the wackiest pieces of music I’ve ever heard. Tons of voices echoing the main few singing “Willy Wonka, Willy Wonka, the amazing chocolatier ...” is just craziness! Anyway, that’s all Danny Elfman for you! Needless to say, he dubbed himself singing a lot.

Alex Beard, composer
http://www.composeralex.com
http://www.myspace.com/composeralex