Film scores for study


 
     

Re: Film scores for study

by Ben Heckel on Sat May 16, 2009 3:20pm

The appeal of the film music to the listener.  Film music is loaded with stuff that sounds good, but it’s unusual, and may never have occurred if film music didn’t exist.

My question is this: how does bland, uninteresting music make a film better?  It may not drag a film down, but it sure doesn’t help.  As I said in the Star Trek thread, Giacchino’s score is one of the things that endears me to the film.  He put real thought into the music, and didn’t settle for generic droning chords to give an emotional background, and it pays off.  Why is it that someone with a musical ear must forfeit his audienceship by not being musically ignorant?  These things may not be what are being said, but it’s the basic message that comes across to me from all over: Quit looking for quality, man!  It’s part of the film. 

The weird thing is, I can’t think of any other facet of filmmaking where it is actually considered to be acceptable to do a subpar job of your work.  You never hear about directors telling the costume designers to not make the costumes quite so well, because it’ll distract from the actors’ performances.  In fact, what I hear when I watch documentaries about set design/production design is that a high level of detail is desirable, because it makes the world of the film that much more immersive. These details may not be noticed at first viewing, or they may never even be in a single frame of the film, but they add to it by making it less fakey and shallow.  It is a similar case with music: the average moviegoer may not get all the thematic development or rich musicality consciously, but it adds tremendously to the film when the composer gives that attention to detail and making a quality piece of work that complements and enhances the film at the same time. 

Yes, the film composer is writing music for a film, but he is also writing music for a film.  Too often the former emphasis is used, when in actuality both sides are equally important.

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Re: Film scores for study

by Alex Beard on Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:45am

Ben Heckel wrote:

My question is this: how does bland, uninteresting music make a film better?

Ben Heckel wrote:

Quit looking for quality, man!  It’s part of the film.

 

Ben Heckel wrote:

The weird thing is, I can’t think of any other facet of filmmaking where it is actually considered to be acceptable to do a subpar job of your work.  You never hear about directors telling the costume designers to not make the costumes quite so well, because it’ll distract from the actors’ performances.

I’ve never said that it’s acceptable to write bland, subpar, low-quality music for films. I’m just saying the standards for “par” and quality are different than those of “standalone” or concert music.

Film music is written to be supportive. Concert music is written to stand on its own. Film music is orchestrated to blend well with the rest of the mix, which includes but isn’t limited to actors’ voices and sound effects. Concert music is written to be heard by itself on a canvas of silence. Film music is written to enhance a story and reinforce (hopefully) existing emotions present on screen. Concert music can tell a story but doesn’t necessarily have to (if you’ve studied music in school, you’ve likely heard about “program” vs. “absolute” music). Many factors of film music are not determined by the composer, or at least are already outlined for him or her (such as form, pacing, and dynamics). In concert music, the composer does whatever he or she feels like.

We could also liken it to something you’ve probably already done. Think about if you’re writing a piece for a trio of piano, flute, and bassoon (or whatever). You want the parts to all be as good as possible, but the bottom line is, the piece itself needs to sound good. You can have the flute player just play their part. It might be amazing, or it might make no sense at all. Either way, the flute part was never meant to stand on its own as your piece. It’s part of a whole.

Or, if you’re writing a piece for a full symphony orchestra, ideally you write an interesting part for all of the performers so they can get into it and give a better performance. But what’s ultimately important is that the orchestration works and sounds “good” (“good” being defined as achieving your desired sound, whether it’s aesthetically pleasing or not). If you’re listening to a piece and it works great, does it matter if you have the brass play soli and they enter halfway through a phrase that sounds like the tutti you want?

Now, notice that I’m not saying the parts can stink. They have to be written and notated clearly, so there’s no question what you want. The parts have to be proficiently written and notated, or everything’s a mess. They have to fit well into the mix, and they have to effectively contribute to the entire piece. In other words, they have to be done well, but in context of what they actually are. You would write for solo flute differently than you would write for a trio or full orchestra.

I agree with you, that all music should be held to the same standard of quality. But, I’m saying that quality is defined differently in different types of music. You can’t effectively judge rap with jazz values, or country music with classical values. Nor can you assess film music with the same values as concert music. To do this actually denigrates film music more than holding it to a different set of standards!

Let me explain. To say film music is basically concert music written for film is to say that both all other audio in the film or the music itself is less important than they actually are. You’re saying that all other audio “gets in the way” of the music. Or, you’re saying that it’s acceptable for the most brilliant piece of “standalone” music ever (since you’re saying film and concert music should be held to the same standards) to be buried down in a mix with tons of dialogue and sounds effect slapped on top of it. Either way, this demonstrates neglect to one of the most crucial aspects of a film.

Alex Beard, composer
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Re: Film scores for study

by Ben Heckel on Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:31am

I wasn’t trying to say that you were saying film scores can be low-grade music or anything like that (I’ve heard some of your stuff, and I’m sure you’d be the last person to want that!  Good stuff, man.).  I just get the impression that that’s the prevailing mindset among many in the film world and in the mainstream public (when the mainstream public even gives it a thought, that is). 

I’m not saying that there aren’t unique concerns to be dealt with, and different elements of sound that you have to be considerate of and use wisdom with—I do not believe the other audio gets in the way, or that it should be trampled on for the sake of making interesting music.  Yes, film music was written to blend well with the mix and support the film.  But brilliant music that easily stands alone has been used for film—in fact, was used for film for at least 50-60 years.  It used to be commonplace—so what changed?  We don’t have to explain that Herrmann, or Steiner, or Tiomkin, or Rozsa, or Bernstein, or Williams, or Goldsmith were working on films, and so because of that they had to dial it back a bit.  When I listen to their music on CD, more often than not, it sounds to me like excellent music that happened to have been written for a film, and thus adapting to the unique challenges and considerations of that artform.

Let’s bring this back to the example that was the catalyst for my remarks along these lines: The Dark Knight.  You had included this score in your list of scores to study, and while there are some good elements in it, overall, I consider it a pretty lackluster score.  The one shining example of scoring in it is the “Watch the World Burn” cue (inappropriately titled, of course), which not only contains some of the absolute best musicality I’ve heard from the two composers in these two films so far, but is also some of the most dramatic and enhancing music in the two films.  If the rest of the score had gotten that kind of treatment, I might be singing a different tune about the score.  But as it is, you said yourself the music isn’t very engaging to listen to—so what is it that makes it so good in film?  In my opinion, it isn’t all that good in film: it doesn’t violate the tone or atmosphere of the film, and it gives a basic emotional wallpaper, but that’s about it.  Many of the qualities of music that are so engaging in a concert hall are the same engaging qualities in the best film score, because that is the language of music.  Again, it doesn’t matter what venue you are writing music for, you are still writing music.

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Re: Film scores for study

by Gabriel Everson on Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:29am

The weird thing is, I can’t think of any other facet of filmmaking where it is actually considered to be acceptable to do a subpar job of your work.  You never hear about directors telling the costume designers to not make the costumes quite so well, because it’ll distract from the actors’ performances.

Have you ever worked around the art department and a director?

I have run into that several times already when doing Pendragon and when doing some costuming for a dance performance.

I was told that some of my “best” (as in most complex and visually pleasing on their own.) ideas would distract from the action of what was going on and should be toned down… Not to say that the piece should be done BADLY but that sometimes less is more.

You will run into it when doing almost anything (unless you under-do everything in the first place and have to be encouraged to branch out more…)

Ultimately every element that goes into a film is subject to the story and the will of the director.

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Re: Film scores for study

by Ben Heckel on Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:21pm

That’s a shame, because everything I’ve heard on DVD bonus features talking about the art department and costumes and such have applauded the attention to detail—The Lord of the Rings being an example that immediately jumps to mind—and how it not only helps to make the world more immersive for the viewers, but also gives the actors that much fuller a world to be able to work in.

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Re: Film scores for study

by Gabriel Everson on Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:57pm

No this is not a bad thing.

It’s more of is it appropriate for the scene. In the bonus features you will see Elrond in some crazy hairstyles that weren’t used because they were distracting. Although they were kinda cool and outlandish they didn’t fit and so weren’t used.

BTS documentaries tend to be super-positive and only talk about the achievements not the ten tries that got thrown out the window before a final design was done.  Wink

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Re: Film scores for study

by Ben Heckel on Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:48am

Oh, I understand that totally.  But one thing that immediately comes to mind is the armor and weapons from those films: so detailed, reflecting the different cultures that the pieces are supposed to come from.  It just makes the world that much more immersive for the actors and the audience.  Yeah, it might have taken twenty billion tries to get it right, but the final product is a work of quality that had real thought brought into and was executed with solid skill and craftsmanship.  That’s what I’m really getting at.

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Re: Film scores for study

by Alex Beard on Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:50am

Well, after nearly 3 months, I’m revisiting this thread!

I mentioned many scores in my initial post, and I wanted to provide links to both the films and the soundtrack CDs I recommended for study. They’ll be in alphabetical order, though, as opposed to the original post (which was sorted by genre).

I’m providing links because there are often several versions of a film on DVD and several versions of a soundtrack CD, especially an older one. The links I’m providing are what I recommend, but of course, you can learn from just about anything! Smile

“Here they come!”

Air Force One
  Film DVD (you can also find this in the $5 bin at Wal-Mart sometimes)
  Soundtrack CD

Aladdin
  Film DVD (2-DVD special edition, out of print)
  Soundtrack CD (Special Edition)

August Rush
  Film DVD
  Soundtrack CD (only a few score tracks on this CD)

Batman
  Film DVD (2-DVD special edition)
  Soundtrack CD

Ben-Hur: A Tale of the Christ
  Film DVD (standard)
  Film DVD (4-DVD collector’s edition, with isolated score!)
  Soundtrack CD (Rhino 2-CD complete score; out of print)

Cast Away
  Film DVD
  (no official score CD release)

The Dark Knight
  Film DVD (standard)
  Film DVD (2-DVD special edition, with a music documentary!)
  Soundtrack (2-CD Special Edition)

E.T.-Extra Terrestrial
  Film DVD (2-DVD collector’s edition, with both the 1982 and 2002 versions of the film, out of print)
  Soundtrack CD (20th Anniversary expanded, remastered edition)

Eagle Eye
  Film DVD (standard)
  Soundtrack CD

Edward Scissorhands
  Film DVD (10th anniversary edition, with audio commentary by composer Danny Elfman!)
  Soundtrack CD

Gladiator
  Film DVD (standard)
  Film DVD (2-DVD collector’s edition, with a music documentary)
  Film DVD (3-DVD extended edition, presumably with the same music documentary found on the 2-DVD collector’s edition)
  Soundtrack CD (OST)
  Soundtrack CD (More Music From Gladiator)

Hook
  Film DVD
  Soundtrack CD

The Incredibles
  Film DVD
  Soundtrack CD

Independence Day
  Film DVD (standard)
  Soundtrack CD (out of print)

Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark
  Film DVD (standard)
  Soundtrack CD (2009 expanded, remastered edition)

  Film DVD (4-DVD complete adventure collection)
  Film DVD (2004 trilogy box set, with a music documentary!)
  Indiana Jones 5-CD Collector’s Edition Box Set

The Little Mermaid
  Film DVD (2-DVD platinum edition)
  Soundtrack CD (2-CD Special Edition)

Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring
  Film DVD (4-DVD extended edition, with a music documentary! out of print?)
  Soundtrack CD (3-CD/1-DVD complete recordings box set)

Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers
  Film DVD (4-DVD extended edition, with a music documentary! out of print?)
  Soundtrack CD (3-CD/1-DVD complete recordings box set)

Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
  Film DVD (4-DVD extended edition, with a music documentary! out of print?)
  Soundtrack CD (4-CD/1DVD complete recordings box set)

  Lord of the Rings trilogy (extended editions, platinum series)

The Matrix
  Film DVD (with audio commentary by composer Don Davis!)
  Soundtrack CD

The Mummy Returns
  Film DVD (collector’s edition)
  Soundtrack CD (out of print?)

The Nightmare Before Christmas
  Film DVD (2-DVD collector’s edition)
  Soundtrack CD (2-CD special edition)

The Passion of the Christ
  Film DVD (standard)
  Film DVD (2-DVD definitive edition, with audio commentary by composer John Debney and a music documentary!)
  Soundtrack CD

Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl
  Film DVD (2-DVD collector’s edition)
  Soundtrack CD

Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man’s Chest
  Film DVD
  Soundtrack CD

Pirates of the Caribbean: At World’s End
  Film DVD (standard)
  Film DVD (2-DVD collector’s edition, with a music documentary!)
  Soundtrack CD

  Pirates of the Caribbean 4-CD/1-DVD collector’s edition box set

The Sixth Sense
  Film DVD (collector’s edition, with a music documentary!)
  Film DVD (2-DVD vista series, with the same aforementioned music documentary!)
  Soundtrack CD (out of print?)

Star Trek: The Motion Picture
  Film DVD (2-DVD director’s cut, with group audio commentary including composer Jerry Goldsmith! out of print?)
  Soundtrack CD (20th anniversary collector’s edition)

Star Wars 4: A New Hope
  Film DVD (2-DVD limited edition, with both the 1977 and 2004 versions!)
  Soundtrack CD (1997 2-CD special edition, with Michael Matessino’s notes! out of print)

Star Wars 5: The Empire Strikes Back
  Film DVD (2-DVD limited edition, with both the 1980 and 2004 versions!)
  Soundtrack CD (1997 2-CD special edition, with Michael Matessino’s notes! out of print)

Star Wars 6: Return of the Jedi
  Film DVD (2-DVD limited edition, with both the 1983 and 2004 versions!)
  Soundtrack CD (1997 2-CD special edition, with Michael Matessino’s notes! out of print)

  Film DVD (2004 trilogy box set, but alas, no music documentary ... out of print)
  Film DVD (new trilogy collection)

Superman
  Film DVD
  Soundtrack CD (2000 Rhino 2-CD complete score release)

Superman Returns
  Film DVD (standard)
  Soundtrack CD

The Three Muskateers
  Film DVD
  Soundtrack CD (out of print)

Vertigo
  Film DVD (2008 2-DVD universal legacy series, with a documentary on Alfred Hitchcock’s “collaborators” that includes a section on composer Bernard Herrmann!)
  Soundtrack CD (1996 Varese Sarabande complete score release)

Well that certainly took a long time, so I do hope that somebody finds it useful!

Alex Beard, composer
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Re: Film scores for study

by Alex Beard on Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:42pm

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Re: Film scores for study

by Jenni Noordhoek on Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:22pm

I just got into the whole film score thing. Been a little nervous about listening to the scores from films I haven’t seen! (and won’t see)

I checked out the soundtrack to The Fellowship of the Ring from the library. (They don’t have the other two. **sniff**) I wasn’t sure at first. Certain tracks did not fit my impressions of certain chapters in the books. (I haven’t seen the films) Like Lothlorien. But others did. Overall, I liked it. Smile Not as much as Narnia, of course…I have PC and have checked out multiple times LWW (the soundtracks, I mean) and just love those soundtracks.

I’ve been having a lot of fun looking for the cues and the themes going through the pieces. I looked at the Wikipedia article on the LotR music, and that helped me pick out the themes.

I wish I could compose, but I think I’d get lost trying to keep track of too many instruments at once! Smile
So I’ll just stand back and admire the music. Smile


Okay, I really don’t know why I want to post this…maybe I’m looking for a good discussion of Narnia and LotR music? Smile
[BTW, my sister is curious about the elvish choir & solo vocals in the tracks “Lothlorien” and “The Bridge of Khazad-dum”. Is there any official transcript (and translation?) of that out there? Smile]

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