Avatar: “I see you.”


 
     

Re: Avatar: “I see you.”

by Nathaniel Bluedorn on Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:10pm

I don’t want to despise you guys who despise ‘Avatar’. I feel that way right now, but that’s an unprofitable feeling. I think we’d have a more united conversation if we were face to face.

There are so few things to admire at any one day in life. I admire ‘Avatar.’ I want to help more people find something to admire, so they can find the courage to stop satisfying their mind with criticism of others, and stand up and make something beautiful themselves.

If you can’t admire ‘Avatar,’ I’d at least like to see more admiration of something else you feel you can admire.

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Re: Avatar: “I see you.”

by Nathaniel Bluedorn on Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:20pm

Okay. I’ve ranted enough. <smile> I guess this thread is the story of Nathan becoming defensive about his latest obsession.

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Re: Avatar: “I see you.”

by Gabriel Hudelson on Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:31pm

Nathaniel Bluedorn wrote:

If you can’t admire ‘Avatar,’ I’d at least like to see more admiration of something else you feel you can admire.

I admire Avatar very much!

- Gabriel Hudelson -
Music and Sound
for Motion Picture

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Re: Avatar: “I see you.”

by Matthew Jimmink on Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:18pm

Nathaniel Bluedorn wrote:

If Jesus came back today, I think he’d be interested in talking to James Cameron and seeing if there were questions Cameron had that Jesus might have answers to. But Jesus would not want to talk to those of us here who want to piket Hollywood with signs that read, “Wake up you idiots!” George Lucas and James Cameron have insight. Jesus wants men with insight - men who are capable of telling stories that touch hearts today.

Umm, I am pretty sure when Jesus next comes back that he isn’t stopping to have conversation.  I am assuming you are talking hypothetically.

I would say that Jesus has given some people a talent to be capable of telling stories that touch hearts.  He has given others different talents.  But first and foremost Jesus wants men that love Him.  If you don’t love Him, the insight is pointless.  God could use your work despite you, but if you aren’t for Him, you are against Him.  He makes that pretty plain.

Stories that touch people’s hearts are great.  I love them.  I hope to make movies that do that.  I don’t think people have to include the actual Gospel message in every film.  But if our work (quality, worldview etc.) is not a reflection of who we are in Christ, then I don’t think Jesus would care one way or another about.  If it touches people’s hearts and evokes strong emotions in them, then that is great storytelling.  But if it doesn’t in some way point to Christ or to God’s Truths, then why should Jesus care?  I am not saying it’s wrong to make these types of stories, but I just don’t see Jesus caring much about creativity for creativity’s sake. 

I could be wrong, but Jesus placed such strong emphasis on seeking and saving the lost before he left, I have a hard time thinking that Jesus is upset about a lack of pure creativity for creativity’s sake from His believers.  If that lack of creativity is inhibiting spreading the Gospel and is brought about a stupid hardheadedness on the part of His people, then yes I could see Him being upset about that.  I think.

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Re: Avatar: “I see you.”

by Eric Boellner on Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:27pm

Let me start off by saying…

Nathaniel, your honesty and godly insight never cease to inspire me.  Smile

On the topic the rest of the thread has turned to, I refuse to believe that because a film contains pagan elements that it somehow promotes paganism.  I refuse to believe that “Every film has a message, good or bad.”

Every film has something you can take from it.  Christians seem only capable of taking evil from movies, and it depresses me.  They also seem incapable of anything but condemnation for a movie, unless it contains specifically Christian religion-promoting and smugly dishonest drivel.

The only thing I have against Avatar is a lack of narrative originality - the only thing Christians have to support is a technical effect.

Nathaniel, for the sole fact that this film has impacted you so profoundly, and inspired you to such heights, I can honestly say that if it wins the Oscar for Best Picture, I won’t be angry!

I like how you see the good in this film.  I like how you see it as something that opens up possibilities, that inspires you as a filmmaker.  I wish everyone (myself included) could learn a bit from you.  We should talk sometime.  Smile

I know I’m obviously not saved and all, and so I don’t expect you to believe me when I say that I have no intention of promoting paganism…

But I happen to have two different story concepts that I plan to “get back to” at some point, both of which are based heavily in pagan mythology.

One of the coolest-looking films coming out this year is Clash of the Titans!

For me, religion in a story is just another element.  To say that James Cameron wants everybody to worship trees and connect with their inner spirit or some crap, simply because he uses certain elements in his story, is like saying that if a character in your film uses a Hershey’s bar to save the day, that it must be promoting an unhealthy lifestyle!

Not everyone’s like you!  Not everyone feels the need to create propoganda, and use it to proselytize a nation.

I don’t think NB has a disdain for the “Great Commandment,”* I think he has a disdain for a specific application of the Great Commandment.*

I think when people look at the church, this is all they see.  It’s like looking at an incredibly overweight, Norbit-esque woman and not realizing that behind the appearance is something worth fighting for.

A good friend of mine, whom I respect very much, once told me “If I could take Christ out of Christianity, and just follow him, I would.”

It’s no wonder they go for the hot-bodied whore.

You guys are seriously so obsessed with your witchhunt, I have trouble believing your films will reach anyone who really needs reached.  It’s a tough thing to say, but true.

I don’t know if my films will make a difference - if anyone will look at my films and say, “That man loves God.”  Perhaps the world’s notion of what a love for God looks like is so screwed up that they’ll figure me for a heathen, just like you do.

But my prayer to God is that, when they look at my life, they’ll see him.  Part of me thinks that’s already in progress.  Part of me thinks it never will be.

My entire goal in film is to entertain, to move, to provoke, to inspire - like a combination of Avatar and The Wrestler.  If that means that I have no right to make films, I’ll be perfectly happy to pay for it on Judgement Day.

* You might notice that the actual “Great Commandment,” as spoken by Christ himself, is twofold: Love God and Love Your Neighbour.

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Re: Avatar: “I see you.”

by Calix Lewis Reneau on Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:27pm

Matthew Jimmink wrote:

point to Christ or to God’s Truths

Which of the following are not God’s Truths:

- The environment is a gift from God which requires careful, intentional stewardship.

- When someone is being oppressed, it is valiant and noble to resist the oppressor even if you’re just a bystander.

- When you are on the wrong side of an issue, it is heroic and honorable to change, even if that change comes at great personal risk.

- The exploitation and destruction of a person - or even an environment - for the sole purpose of selfish gain is wrong.

- The opposition of a superior force that is doing evil, even when you are likely to give your life in the effort, is a worthy act.

...and which of the preceding can’t be legitimately seen in Avatar?

Curiously,
Calix

(...I’m not asking for the things that aren’t Godly in Avatar - I’m asking if any of these things, specifically is both inherently Godly as a principle and to be found in Avatar…)

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Re: Avatar: “I see you.”

by Calix Lewis Reneau on Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:35pm

Eric Boellner wrote:

I refuse to believe that “Every film has a message, good or bad.”

I believe every film has a context - and evert filmmaker brings a worldview to their work - but that no film can be reduced to absolute “good” or “bad.”

(Or else it is perfectly valid to reduce a certain other film to “this film simply promotes the bad theology of the prosperity doctrine due to undeniable thematic content and must therefore be opposed on the grounds of that simplistic reductionism!”)

Eric Boellner wrote:

I don’t think NB has a disdain for the “Great Commandment,”* I think he has a disdain for a specific application of the Great Commandment.*

I don’t know where it went off-track, but it’s not “The Great Commandment” under concern here, it’s “The Great Commission” - to preach the gospel.  I think using Jesus’ last words to do so as a bludgeon kinda misses the point, but I wanted to clarify what we’re talking about by reminding of the correct label.

Eric Boellner wrote:

A good friend of mine, whom I respect very much, once told me “If I could take Christ out of Christianity, and just follow him, I would.”

I believe Ghandi said something similar…

Cheers,
Calix

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Re: Avatar: “I see you.”

by Eric Boellner on Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:35pm

Matthew Jimmink wrote:

...I just don’t see Jesus caring much about creativity for creativity’s sake.

You do know you’re talking about the d00d who created life, the universe and everything… right?  Wink

“He that is not against us is for us…”  It goes both ways, mate.

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Re: Avatar: “I see you.”

by Eric Boellner on Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:42pm

Calix Lewis Reneau wrote:
Eric Boellner wrote:

I refuse to believe that “Every film has a message, good or bad.”

I believe every film has a context - and evert filmmaker brings a worldview to their work - but that no film can be reduced to absolute “good” or “bad.”

That’s what I meant about every film having something you can take away from it.

Calix Lewis Reneau wrote:
Eric Boellner wrote:

I don’t think NB has a disdain for the “Great Commandment,”* I think he has a disdain for a specific application of the Great Commandment.*

I don’t know where it went off-track, but it’s not “The Great Commandment” under concern here, it’s “The Great Commission” - to preach the gospel.  I think using Jesus’ last words to do so as a bludgeon kinda misses the point, but I wanted to clarify what we’re talking about by reminding of the correct label.

Oops, that was totally my fault!  I misread it in their posts and thought they called it the great commandment.  Embarrassed

...it’s been a long day…

Calix Lewis Reneau wrote:

I believe Ghandi said something similar…

Considering that my friend is a huge fan of Ghandi, Bhudda and others - it wouldn’t surprise me!  Smile

As an epic side-thought, I think The Book of Eli should be required viewing for every Christian, for the sole fact that it shows how religion should be used, and how it is used.

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Re: Avatar: “I see you.”

by Nathanael Brunner on Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:54pm

I’m supposed to going to bed, so I’m not going to respond to much right now.

Here’s an interesting quote from James Cameron during an interview with Entertainment Weekly:

“I support ecoterrorism.”

So I think it’s rather naive to automatically assume that all filmmakers are angels who have undiluted and non-propagandist motives.

(And even if all the environmental principles of Avatar are well and good, who honestly believes that in the current political climate they will be interpreted within the bounds of reason?)

FWIW, I’m not trying to condemn anybody here…my thoughts are jumbled right now, and it’s rather ineffective to reply to multiple issues within a few sentences…

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